Curse

lacasner · Jun 10, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

The whole purpose of this thread is vague. Why else would PvE'rs want skill balances unless they wanted to make the game easier? All I have ever heard is just people complaining how they can't farm this, or can't do this fast enough, and then when Anet finally changes it, people still bitch.

People bitch because they can, without any real reason as well. If PvE'rs had any ounce of sense, they would understand that new or different skills wouldn't make PvE more fun, but actually new CONTENT would. It's a shocking revelation, I know.

Yichi · Jun 10, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The fact that PvE skills require no attribute investment is completely and utterly against the basic premise of GW.

So you finally admit that there IS a problem with Ursan Blessing, yet you have spent the last 5 pages defending it against us that the game design choices from ANET weren't a problem because they themselves haven't said it was a problem.

Talk in circles much?

Master Fuhon · Jun 10, 2008, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Game companies can be willing to encourage a higher level of functioning with their products. There's a reason why the Nintendo Wii is being used to promote brain/body functioning in the elderly, because it beats the alternative of allowing people to waste their lives away in front of television sets. The message is pretty clear to me also; when people are in the right state of mind they seek to be challenged in some way. That doesn't mean we shouldn't get some breaks, but we aren't babies who can't think through things. I don't see why a game like guild wars should accept being a pacifier for the genre (which it never was, based on original game design, read: skill > time spent). Note that this analogy refers to catering to the part of the game population you can expect to cry all the time no matter what you do.

Imposing a handicap on self is already an admission of something needing to be fixed. It also doesn't stop someone from doing the right thing and asking for the challenge to be provided by the developers. (Why not combine the two behaviors by both challenging oneself and asking for a challenge to be provided?) And like the others, I hate when game companies put in brainless grinds in the place of challenges that require us to think.

Someone may not respect that guild wars was full of achievement based rewards, but an easy game will not provide enough psychological rewards for a majority of people. No difficult problems to solve or tactics to explore. No enemies worth defeating and bragging about. And with those three gone, noone and nothing left to talk to others about. That sums up the 4 types of motivations for playing a game. If you still want an easy game where you don't have to think, you could probably spend your day lining up action figures and knocking them down with a grin across your face. Games with an ESRB of Teen+ aren't meant for you anyway.

Snow Bunny · Jun 10, 2008, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

casual player: "They could give less of a shit", and that's very true. This applies to everything: armor, elite areas, nerfs, buffs.

GUILD WARS
GUILD WARS
GUILD WARS
GUILD WARS
GUILD WARS
GUILD WARS
GUILD WARS
GUILD WARS
GUILD WARS
GUILD WARS

Oh right, I agree with the above statement. The only people who don't want Ursan to be nerfed are hardcore farmers. or bad players.

Kashrlyyk · Jun 11, 2008, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

...
In the end, overpowered skills seem to ruin things for (almost) everybody by devaluing the goal and making the process trivial.
...

Then why are only a handful of the people visiting this forum every day complaining about it?? Right now there are 1830 people on this forum, but only 10-20 are complaining?? Where is your "(almost) everybody"??

So of the minority of people visiting forums roughly 1-2% are complaining about this issue!!

tmakinen · Jun 11, 2008, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The only people who don't want Ursan to be nerfed are hardcore farmers. or bad players.

I believe that you meant "the only people who want Ursan not to be nerfed ..." since there are actually three groups of people here, those who want it to be nerfed, those who want it not to be nerfed, and those like me who couldn't care less either way.

One final thing before I'm done with this thread. The perceived problems (perceived, as they are only problems from certain points of view as established above) didn't occur because some devs suddenly decided to eff up the game for good. The roots of those problems are in the initial design decisions of the game and all the rest is just contingency work (and somewhat sloppy at that but that's not the real problem). You know, they could be solved to the satisfaction of (nearly) everybody but that would require a total overhaul of character profession, skill and armor systems, monster AI and explorable design among other things. In other words, it is not possible to stay true to the original vision within the framework of GW, there were mistakes made from the very beginning. That is the reason I still have modest hope for GW2.

Melody Cross · Jun 11, 2008, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Then why are only a handful of the people visiting this forum every day complaining about it?? Right now there are 1830 people on this forum, but only 10-20 are complaining?? Where is your "(almost) everybody"??

So of the minority of people visiting forums roughly 1-2% are complaining about this issue!!

For one thing, most intelligent posters (the ones I know) avoid Riverside like a plague in the first place. I wouldn't have come here at all if someone hadn't linked the page to me and asked me to.

On the other hand; there aren't just 20 people complaining either. Just looking at the first page, there are 7 people agreeing with the OP; concurring with the argument that a lack of challenge in this game will kill it. Most of the people disagreeing...are PvPers laughing about "our" folly. I find it...disconcerting that one of them is Avvare, smugly stating how "PvEers asked to be cut away from balance" and the majority must be happy over it...

I hope that was a fleeting act of bitterness. I also hope holymasamune never reads it. The "Thats it! I'm quitting PvE" thread was nothing short of epic in its reasoning why--from one players standpoint--skill splitting is bad for GW in the first damn place.

You remind me of psychic believers Kashrlyyk. There were studies done a few years ago where people were asked how many times a "reader" got a hit and a miss (which is to say, how many times the psycic was correct versus how many times they appeared to be just throwing out names). They guessed maybe 5-6 times right out of twelve times they were wrong. The actual number of missed hits was closer to 20 or higher, when the readings were recorded.

Or to put it another way: you're seeing what you want to see, and ignoring what you don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

A good friend of mine in WoW says this about the casual player: "They could give less of a shit", and that's very true.

I've never been one to believe that. i always hope that people--in a group or singularly--do care about what happens. This is something they enjoy; they should care about it, worry for its future.. I respect the belief because I know where it comes from but...I'd hate for that to be true.

GGs

Kashrlyyk · Jun 11, 2008, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

....
On the other hand; there aren't just 20 people complaining either...

Is the number anywhere close to 900??? Which would be 50% of the current online forum users! All I am saying is that a minority of a minority have a problem with it, which is an insignificant amount. They can completly ignore that group, without hurting their future success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

I've never been one to believe that. i always hope that people--in a group or singularly--do care about what happens. This is something they enjoy; they should care about it, worry for its future.. ...

I do care, I care about the growing idea of watching and spying on every single member of society for the very small chance to catch a terrorist, about contracts discussed between Europe and America behind closed doors (ACTA)....etc.
It actually frightens me.

But this is a computer game and seriously, you shouldn´t care so much. I´ve been there too. Care for the important, the big stuff, don´t get distracted by all the small things like a Computer game.

ANet is going to do whatever they want to do! No matter how much you complain. There is no need for a 30+ page long thread about it.

Cacheelma · Jun 11, 2008, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

ANet is going to do whatever they want to do! No matter how much you complain. There is no need for a 30+ page long thread about it.

Why do you care, then? This is a forum. People come here to discuss whatever they want to discuss. Nobody here expects Anet to jump up and do something simply because we're DISCUSSING about it. It might be a good idea if they do. But none of us would cry if they don't. As customers we can make the decision whether to support games from a company or not. That's all.

If you don't care to discuss the topic, leave. And unlike an introduction of overpowered stuff to a game, discussing about something won't CHANGE ANYTHING. And it sure won't affect you. Feel free to ignore us.

If you want to argue with us, fine. But saying "Anet won't do anything, stop discussing" is not needed. We all know that. Just leave.

cellardweller · Jun 11, 2008, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Is the number anywhere close to 900??? Which would be 50% of the current online forum users! All I am saying is that a minority of a minority have a problem with it, which is an insignificant amount. They can completly ignore that group, without hurting their future success.

Your reasoning is flawed because you have assumed that those that have not stated an opinion support your perspective without any basis. There are far more people asking for the overpowered PvE skills to be removed than were asking for them to be introduced so, if anything, the evidence suggests that they are alienating a larger minority than they are pleasing.

Turtle222 · Jun 11, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

I think bryant got it right, most do not really care what happens as long as the game is still available to be played. You may think this was the end of Gw as we know it, but i'm pretty sure for everyo one person that thinks this, 10 others are still going to play and enjoy it.

I Will Heal You Ally · Jun 11, 2008, 09:45 AM // 09:45

The reason they did this so that more people can achieve titles and money to fill up their HoM cause, be realistic, GW2 is on the way and I totally support their changes. This is just the beginning.
Calling Anet incapable is rather silly... If you know what's the best why not just create your own MMORPG and launch it.
I'd rather have some powerfull skills then none... and why do you mind. It's not like you can't beat someone who's using ER in PvE. Stick to PvP and you'll be ok

Thank you very much

upier · Jun 11, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

So you finally admit that there IS a problem with Ursan Blessing, yet you have spent the last 5 pages defending it against us that the game design choices from ANET weren't a problem because they themselves haven't said it was a problem.

Talk in circles much?

I thought I made it clear why I am standing for Ursan?
It's because of A.Net's track-record.
If they "fix" it - they'll trash the game even more.

I stated ages ago that I wish we'd be playing a game where Ursan-like skills couldn't exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Upier, it's humans vs. very poorly designed AI.

The PvE monsters need all the help they can get.

Then, like previously stated, do not mention balance in PvE.
We willingly gave up balance for easier game design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That is not a problem with PvE, that is a problem with Mesmers. I agree fully that Mesmers have a difficult time in PvE, and that should've been addressed long ago.

Actually it's not just a mesmer issue.
It's just that the mesmer is the poster-child for this.
Take a look at ele damage and how it just disappears in harder areas, or how heals/prots/armour/... are balanced on the fact that a foe can only do a certain amount of damage, ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Let me give you an example: God of War. On God Mode, everything is imbalanced as hell. Most bad guys can kill you in just a couple of hits while said bad guy could take a couple hundred. Not to mention that you were always outnumbered, save for boss fights (which in fact weren't really fair, either. *%(# you, minotaur!). Now, did I complain about this? No, because I'm a human. I am *smart*. I am going against an AI. I don't need overpowered shit to beat overpowered and horribly stupid shit.

In PvP - A.Net catered the wishes of the best players.
In PvE - A.Net catered the wishes of the average to bad players. And the reason why they need to cater them is because this group is huge and would otherwise probably rage quit on the game because of the moronic design decisions.
Just because the posters here are good, doesn't mean everyone is.
And A.Net seems to be thinking of those people when bringing in some the new ideas. (Well, I'd hope that they are thinking of them, because that would imply that they are doing this rationally, rather then just throwing out every moronic idea that crosses their mind.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Oh right, I agree with the above statement. The only people who don't want Ursan to be nerfed are hardcore farmers. or bad players.

Listen to the man.
Now ask yourself - in PvE - which group is bigger (and thus has more buying power) - the godly players or the average/bad players with farmers? (Ohh and add the fact that the godly players share an emotional bond with GW on not-so-rare occasions - meaning that they won't rage quit if you shit in their face a few times.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Who said I'm not against PvE skills?

The issue is that not a lot of people see this.
You have people who are happily screaming "OMG!1 Ursan is teh sux!1!! And I refuse to play with something this unbalanced!!1!", but when it's time to do something in GW, they are like "Just a sec! I need to take my Cry Of Pain!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It involves Ursan because, with my idea in place, there wouldn't *be* a need for Ursan.

Your idea involves "Nerf Ursan!", but "Nerf Ursan!" doesn't involve your idea.
That's why your idea is much better.
And that's what people should be screaming for!
Not "Fix the consequence!" but rather "Fix the cause!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Turn the difficulty of a high-end area on Normal mode relative to that of something a bit easier (example: making normal mode Urgoz as challenging as the Jade Sea)? What's so hard about that? Not to mention that they already did it in DoA, so ANet showed it could be done.

They did it ... what ... 5 times in 3 years?
And now we are asking them to rebuild the WHOLE game a year before the game dies?
Do you see why I have my doubts, or am rather convinced that it won't happen?

DreamWind · Jun 11, 2008, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

One final thing before I'm done with this thread. The perceived problems (perceived, as they are only problems from certain points of view as established above) didn't occur because some devs suddenly decided to eff up the game for good. The roots of those problems are in the initial design decisions of the game and all the rest is just contingency work (and somewhat sloppy at that but that's not the real problem). You know, they could be solved to the satisfaction of (nearly) everybody but that would require a total overhaul of character profession, skill and armor systems, monster AI and explorable design among other things. In other words, it is not possible to stay true to the original vision within the framework of GW, there were mistakes made from the very beginning. That is the reason I still have modest hope for GW2.

If you know that Anet made serious mistakes, and is continuing to make serious mistakes even today, how can any intelligent person have hope for GW2?

Seriously think about it. GW2 is not going to be a fix for all the mistakes they made in GW1, because they haven't even acknowledged that they have made all those mistakes. Instead, GW2 is currently promising to be a CONTINUATION of the mistakes. Remember, everything happening in GW1 now is now simply a lead in to GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I thought I made it clear why I am standing for Ursan?
It's because of A.Net's track-record.
If they "fix" it - they'll trash the game even more.

I stated ages ago that I wish we'd be playing a game where Ursan-like skills couldn't exist.

No you didn't make it clear. In fact, you were defending overpowered skills as not a problem because Anet didn't declare it as a problem, and now you have backpeddled in the face of convincing arguments. You now ADMIT there is a problem. One step in the right direction. Then you admit that Anet's track record with changing the game is bad. Second step in the right direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Then, like previously stated, do not mention balance in PvE.
We willingly gave up balance for easier game design.

This thread is about balance. It wouldn't be this long if people didn't care. WHO willingly gave it up? Anet? The players sure didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Actually it's not just a mesmer issue.
It's just that the mesmer is the poster-child for this.

Let me get this straight. You are saying that Anet screwed up badly balance wise, and overpowered crap is simply a patch to all the problems? Unfortunately, this is a garbage way to run a game. The patch is worse than the original problem. It simply creates an even new bigger problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

In PvP - A.Net catered the wishes of the best players.
In PvE - A.Net catered the wishes of the average to bad players. And the reason why they need to cater them is because this group is huge and would otherwise probably rage quit on the game because of the moronic design decisions.

No they wouldn't. They haven't in the past. Why would they now? I can name you a BUNCH of games where PvE and PvP coexist, and PvP changes didn't make the PvE players suddenly leave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Listen to the man.
Now ask yourself - in PvE - which group is bigger (and thus has more buying power) - the godly players or the average/bad players with farmers?

You have people who are happily screaming "OMG!1 Ursan is teh sux!1!! And I refuse to play with something this unbalanced!!1!", but when it's time to do something in GW, they are like "Just a sec! I need to take my Cry Of Pain!".

Huh??

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that's what people should be screaming for!
Not "Fix the consequence!" but rather "Fix the cause!".

People are not yelling fix the cause because they know it is never going to happen. Fixing the consequence has a decent shot.

Fox example...assassins, ritualists, dervishes, and paragons are the cause of a lot of problems in PvP. We could yell to fix the cause (remove the damn things from the game), but it won't happen. Fixing the consequences (balancing all their skills) has a chance of happening. Same thing goes for PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And now we are asking them to rebuild the WHOLE game a year before the game dies?
Do you see why I have my doubts, or am rather convinced that it won't happen?

I'm unconvinced as well. Personally I would love to have them rewind the game 2+ years, but that isn't happening either. I think we should just face the reality that Guild Wars 1 is now simply a portal to Guild Wars 2. Once 2 comes out, 1 is probably going to die. Its as simple as that. Unfortunately, this is not how a lot of people thought Guild Wars 1 would go.

Bryant Again · Jun 11, 2008, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

But this is a computer game and seriously, you shouldn´t care so much...

We shouldn't? So why do you, or at least why have you the past pages?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I stated ages ago that I wish we'd be playing a game where Ursan-like skills couldn't exist.

Unfortunately, we did not get that. That's no excuse to let everything go in the shitter, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Then, like previously stated, do not mention balance in PvE.
We willingly gave up balance for easier game design.

Not "easy", but "possible". Most games go in "imbalanced" game design and usually thrive, Guild Wars PvE is no different. Granted, it could've been different, but it would've been terribly hard to do and risky for the AI; the variables the designers would have to pay attention to reach into the trillions^100.

While it would've been pretty cool to see a game like this (maybe GW2?), I'll be happy with this "other way" as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

In PvP - A.Net catered the wishes of the best players.
In PvE - A.Net catered the wishes of the average to bad players. And the reason why they need to cater them is because this group is huge and would otherwise probably rage quit on the game because of the moronic design decisions.

No, they catered to the impatient, immature, "I want it nao!" players.

As I've stated before, the casual player usually doesn't care. The casual player is probably somewhere in the middle of the crystal desert, or somewhere in the jade sea, or somewhere in Kourna, just happily trudging along playing the campaign.

The people that these updates are catering to are the same people you see on WoW everyday saying "this game sucks" or "i'm cancelin mah account!" or "i'm cancelin my account if i don't fix this!1!" Thing is, the game grew in people despite their "warnings", you could check their armories months later to see that they're still playing, etc.

There are two types of "bad" players: those who are new and inexperienced and forgivably bad and are off somewhere in the middle of the games (the people who don't care or notice much besides what they're doing), or those who complain endlessly about everything yet play anyway. ANet catered to the latter, which is just another minority and no different than the one you see here wanting all these things nerfed.

Interesting thought regarding UB as a selling point: It's not going to be much of a "sale" when GWEN costs 10 bucks everywhere I go, so that's double suckage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The issue is that not a lot of people see this.
You have people who are happily screaming "OMG!1 Ursan is teh sux!1!! And I refuse to play with something this unbalanced!!1!", but when it's time to do something in GW, they are like "Just a sec! I need to take my Cry Of Pain!".

It's actually just that the other PvE skills aren't mentioned. This doesn't mean they don't want them nerfed. But a lot of the posters here have been against totally op junk in the past, and many of them being against the initial PvE skills.

Plus, people are more concerned with Ursan because none of the other PvE skills can even compare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

They did it ... what ... 5 times in 3 years?
And now we are asking them to rebuild the WHOLE game a year before the game dies?

Change the normal mode areas of the *elite* areas: UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz, DoA, etc. I may not have been specific enough.

Kashrlyyk · Jun 11, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Your reasoning is flawed because you have assumed that those that have not stated an opinion support your perspective without any basis. There are far more people asking for the overpowered PvE skills to be removed than were asking for them to be introduced so, if anything, the evidence suggests that they are alienating a larger minority than they are pleasing.

Qui tacet, consentire videtur!

Or if they don´t complain, the "problem" is not complainable for them, it is a minor "problem" or they even think there is no problem. The reasoning is not flawed.

Bryant Again · Jun 11, 2008, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Or if they don´t complain, the "problem" is not complainable for them, it is a minor "problem" or they even think there is no problem. The reasoning is not flawed.

I've seen just as much "complaining" as people's farming skills being nerfed as a side effect of "PvP balance". So is that not a problem, either?

kostolomac · Jun 11, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

I see the balancing of pve in several steps:
1. The devs need to inform themselves about the classes , their play styles etc..
2. Gather insight from the community
3. Buff/nerf all professions , separate the pve only skills from titles , nerf ursan so that it becomes much harder to complete elite areas , thus "making" the players make viable builds by themselves. The candidates for buffs imo are : mesmers , sins , ritus , to a degree rangers, dervs and paras.
4. Educate the player base so that the proffesion hate gets smaller
5. Change the builds monsters use in elite areas and in hard mode , instead of just making them more powerful give them better AI. Changing them every month or so (only applies to elite areas) to give more challenge.
Steps 3-5 need to be done simultaneously in one update and done on a regular basis.
6. Motivate players who have been longer in the game to PUG and educate the newer players about the "heart" of the game , instead running away from them like the plague.

About ursan users , i see 3 types of them:
1. The casual : you won't see him stomping DoA , UW or FoW on a regular basis , once he gets through it , we wont see him there soon , cares about skill/time to a degree
2. The title hunter : uses ursan as the fastest method for archieving his goals
3. The oportunist: that's the player who clears DoA ,UW , FoW every day for profit , the worst kind of player guild wars can have , cares the least about the "heart" of GW.
The 1. kind will suffer the most if the steps i mentioned are not taken since they won't get to enjoy the best parts of GW. To those who say that casuals are not supposed to enjoy them , they paid the same amount of money to ANET and deserve the same treatment as older players.
With step 5 players who seek challenge will get it.
I don't see that happening , so i hope ANET makes GW2 alike prophecies where skill>time mattered the most.

Clarissa F · Jun 11, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

One: a truly "casual" player is there for RP'ing, playing through the game, having fun with guildies, etc. They might get together to try an elite area, if they have the time and people willing, but it's not a big deal. Most "casual" players may not have heard of Urgoz or know about DoA as anything but an area they stepped into onetime exploring gateways in RoT and got nom-nommed. If you nerfed Ursan, it would not affect these players. Casual players know elite areas are supposed to be hard as shit. It's the bad players who can't understand why Mending is "baed" on a warrior, or have OCD tendencies enough to waste hours grinding rep, who would be affected.

Two: If you are going to leave Ursan/imbagon/Godmode et al in the game, take the word ELITE off the areas. With these things and cons in the game, there is no such thing as an elite area, because with enough time and grinding, anyone with EotN can have a skill that will get them and their friends through any areas of the game. Ditch HM, as well, while you're at it. call NM Noob Mode, and make HM normal mode. At least then Anet will be honest.

Snow Bunny · Jun 11, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Upier, we all started out as bad at one point, most specifically a point somewhere between 2005 and 2006.

Why does ANet have to lessen the curve now?